Comments on: ISO 9001 Internal Auditing http://blog.capablepeople.co.uk/2009/11/iso-9001-internal-auditing/ Just another WordPress weblog Fri, 02 Dec 2011 12:08:33 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1 By: shaun http://blog.capablepeople.co.uk/2009/11/iso-9001-internal-auditing/comment-page-1/#comment-18407 shaun Tue, 04 Jan 2011 10:33:39 +0000 http://blog.capablepeople.co.uk/?p=1195#comment-18407 I think we have to be realistic about what you can do in 5 days Andy. If we are to burden "training" with a substantial share of the blame (and I'm not saying that might not be relevant) we also have to accept that there are natural limits on any improvement curve in this direction, based on the current 5 day (for IRCA) and 4 day (for RABSQA) "flagship" training programs. I know of no other specialism that takes itself so seriously where they think 5 days and a 2 hour open book would be any more than an introduction. Most other training programs are measured in years, not hours. So as things stand I would have to say that a trainer can only go so far, and what happens when these characters are set loose is fair and square the responsibility of their employer or contractor I think we have to be realistic about what you can do in 5 days Andy. If we are to burden “training” with a substantial share of the blame (and I’m not saying that might not be relevant) we also have to accept that there are natural limits on any improvement curve in this direction, based on the current 5 day (for IRCA) and 4 day (for RABSQA) “flagship” training programs. I know of no other specialism that takes itself so seriously where they think 5 days and a 2 hour open book would be any more than an introduction. Most other training programs are measured in years, not hours. So as things stand I would have to say that a trainer can only go so far, and what happens when these characters are set loose is fair and square the responsibility of their employer or contractor

]]> By: Andy Nichols http://blog.capablepeople.co.uk/2009/11/iso-9001-internal-auditing/comment-page-1/#comment-18317 Andy Nichols Mon, 03 Jan 2011 17:00:33 +0000 http://blog.capablepeople.co.uk/?p=1195#comment-18317 Shaun: Agreed! I see the root of the issue is that there's no training available to train people in how to manage the audit program. Even if auditors were given good training in doing audits, if they turn up to do audits under the wrong premise, they won't be as effective anyway. Auditor training is, and has always been, based on supplier auditor training (from British Gas) back in the 80s and hasn't changed (much) since. What's not been considered is that the needs of supplier audit management is mainly triggered by two things - supplier problems and qualification of a new supplier. Internal audits have (significant) others. What's needed is a complete revamp of the IRCA and RABQSA style training program. Shaun:
Agreed! I see the root of the issue is that there’s no training available to train people in how to manage the audit program. Even if auditors were given good training in doing audits, if they turn up to do audits under the wrong premise, they won’t be as effective anyway.

Auditor training is, and has always been, based on supplier auditor training (from British Gas) back in the 80s and hasn’t changed (much) since. What’s not been considered is that the needs of supplier audit management is mainly triggered by two things – supplier problems and qualification of a new supplier. Internal audits have (significant) others. What’s needed is a complete revamp of the IRCA and RABQSA style training program.

]]> By: EFQM and ISO 9001 - a comparison of approaches | Capable People Blog http://blog.capablepeople.co.uk/2009/11/iso-9001-internal-auditing/comment-page-1/#comment-8014 EFQM and ISO 9001 - a comparison of approaches | Capable People Blog Wed, 25 Aug 2010 09:37:36 +0000 http://blog.capablepeople.co.uk/?p=1195#comment-8014 [...] on Twitter about the merits of the EFQM self-assessment approach and the limitations of the typical ISO 9001 audit-driven approach. Something from that debate concerned me and it was a while before I could put my [...] [...] on Twitter about the merits of the EFQM self-assessment approach and the limitations of the typical ISO 9001 audit-driven approach. Something from that debate concerned me and it was a while before I could put my [...]

]]> By: Beginner's guide to ISO 9001 | Capable People Blog http://blog.capablepeople.co.uk/2009/11/iso-9001-internal-auditing/comment-page-1/#comment-8011 Beginner's guide to ISO 9001 | Capable People Blog Wed, 25 Aug 2010 09:35:22 +0000 http://blog.capablepeople.co.uk/?p=1195#comment-8011 [...] ISO 9001 Internal Auditing – a summary of what you need to know to implement an effective audit program [...] [...] ISO 9001 Internal Auditing – a summary of what you need to know to implement an effective audit program [...]

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